tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1927188814636059936.post2912336242077804824..comments2023-08-02T09:04:27.679+01:00Comments on Rear Guard Action: How the tales of old men have democratised the experience of warJurhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00159781200263742361noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1927188814636059936.post-81773660961822522102013-02-15T07:49:22.640+00:002013-02-15T07:49:22.640+00:00Thanks again for the replies!Thanks again for the replies!Jurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00159781200263742361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1927188814636059936.post-66487696287641967002013-02-15T07:48:48.180+00:002013-02-15T07:48:48.180+00:00Part of what happens in Afghanistan comes from the...Part of what happens in Afghanistan comes from the modern, 'empty' battlefield, part from the nature of low intensity warfare.<br /><br />But there's also a difference in that the citizen-soldier of the Greek city state, as a member of his community, also had a say in going to war and its prosecution. That may have given him more information on the big picture than his present day counterpart.<br /><br />Then again, mercenaries (eg in the 17th or 18th century) had no clue and probably didn't care about the reasons for the war and how it was going.Jurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00159781200263742361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1927188814636059936.post-78408097754305960482013-02-15T07:12:43.975+00:002013-02-15T07:12:43.975+00:00Just to add to my previous comments. the Musah Qul...Just to add to my previous comments. the Musah Qulah case is, to my understanding, an extreme one and noteworthy for it. But it does serve to illustrate that even with modern communication means the perspective can still be surprisingly limited.Derkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08635270979890043494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1927188814636059936.post-63695234025186016562013-02-15T07:06:47.363+00:002013-02-15T07:06:47.363+00:00Valid point. I'm not sure class is the big fac...Valid point. I'm not sure class is the big factor in the differences of accounts though. Bigger factors would seem to be the closeness to the actual action on the one side, and the ability to see the bigger picture on the other. In that respect I found "Company Commander" particularly interesting as it stitches those two worlds together to some extent.<br /><br />The stone age warrior in a skirmish is a somewhat misleading comparison, as the overall event is small enough to be perceived from the perspective from one person who is actually there.<br /><br />But comparing the falangist and today's squaddy or one at Goose Green? Even with radios and everything, my impression is that what a squaddy will know about what is going outside his company or sometimes even his platoon will be fragmented and out-of-date by the time it gets to him. E.g. (if I recall correctly) the Irish troops, including their command, at Musah Qulah in 2006 received almost no information on what was going on outside their platoon house's direct environment for most of their stay there. <br /><br />Derkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08635270979890043494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1927188814636059936.post-56163308352170382682013-02-13T21:33:04.024+00:002013-02-13T21:33:04.024+00:00Hi Derk,
There will always be a difference betwee...Hi Derk,<br /><br />There will always be a difference between high and low ranking soldiers. Much of that difference is perspective and social class. The question is: how much has it changed over time? <br /><br />Obviously a stone age warrior was much more personally involved in the lead up to a skirmish, and had a direct interest in the outcome. <br /><br />But what when social distance grows in increasingly complex societies. And does the type of government matter? Did an Athenian citizen-falangist have a better idea of the direction of the campaign or battle than a squady at Goose Green? <br /><br />What do you think?Jurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00159781200263742361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1927188814636059936.post-3337639769036093652013-02-13T14:05:50.711+00:002013-02-13T14:05:50.711+00:00Very interesting and thought provoking blog post. ...Very interesting and thought provoking blog post. I will certainly have to watch both documentaries now. Reading contemporary accounts from e.g. Afghanistan, the difference in perspective depending on e.g. command level is very noteworthy. And even then the accounting in tge western world is still rather one sided. I am looking forward to the perspective that future historians will grant on today's current events.Derkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08635270979890043494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1927188814636059936.post-92111920342172844022013-02-05T08:29:41.363+00:002013-02-05T08:29:41.363+00:00I think the courage of many endeavors stands out m...I think the courage of many endeavors stands out much more when you realise how much chaos there was. Skorzeny went in, knowing it could all go badly wrong. But then, fortune on average favours the brave/foolish.<br /><br />It has led to a different kind of history, asking questions about mass behaviour. There's at least four general approaches that I know of: mass psychology, sociology, homo economicus and micro decisions to macro behaviour. <br /><br />Only sociology describes process as emanating from the group, while the other three see it as processes emanating from individuals.<br /><br />Military history has adapted the first to small group process, the group you eat with. But even then there are different factors: does the group cohesion make you do it, or does every individual derive his personal status from the group and thus make an individual choice to conform?Jurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00159781200263742361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1927188814636059936.post-295581051174397732013-02-04T22:29:40.610+00:002013-02-04T22:29:40.610+00:00Only yesterday at CLWG was I discussing this trans...Only yesterday at CLWG was I discussing this transition of historiography. We had just replayed the German intervention to free Mussolini which included Skorzeny. The modern account of the battle included much of the incompetence, and sheer luck that led to Skorzeny's successful raid. As a boy I remember reading about his daring glider borne raid and it recounted as a tale of courage and great planning and execution.<br /><br />I sometimes wonder if our move from Generals and drum and trumpet history to our focus on the ordinary chap and this episodic and almost accidental history is also like the move from grand vision of science to that of quantum randomness and sociological questioning of science itself.<br /><br />NickLufthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07154425473446015309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1927188814636059936.post-85697965531625024842013-02-04T20:09:58.745+00:002013-02-04T20:09:58.745+00:00Thanks Michael, that is a great and much appreciat...Thanks Michael, that is a great and much appreciated compliment to my blog. I guess my 'coming of age' in history was similar to yours. I moved from battles and generals, politicians and their schemes to the invisible hand of the economy and the historical materialism. <br /><br />None of these give the full picture. They might explain part of change, but without understanding human experience we have no idea of the decisions people make in day to day life. What did they know, where did they think it would all lead to? For them, and in the big picture?<br /><br />Without the individual power of Napoleon or Roosevelt, how did masses of individual choices by powerless people shape the world? When did people stop fearing repression? When did they decide that repression was an alternative to chaos and insecurity?<br /><br />Of course, all these approaches to history have value. BUt never in isolation. It's just that it is impossible to write history incorporating all these approaches evenly.<br /><br />But what I think is most important is that 'the history of common people' has made history so popular. Oral history, but also genealogy have brought in so many amateur historians in. They are a huge market for professional writers, but are also already proving a useful auxiliary workforce for academics.<br /><br />Who knows, maybe someday they'll wrest history from the hands of the professionals.Jurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00159781200263742361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1927188814636059936.post-92036744913342513982013-02-04T18:59:08.184+00:002013-02-04T18:59:08.184+00:00Thanks for a thoughtful and very personal post, I ...Thanks for a thoughtful and very personal post, I quite enjoyed it and am enjoying your blog more as I get to know it better.<br />When I was an undergraduate in the early 1980s the dominant historiography was in transition from great men to great ideas and forces (an example of the latter being Braudel's trilogy on the Mediterranean), but the histories of everyday life were there as well (eg, the Annales school in France) and while I was quite a snob at first, not wanting to read the histories of "women and slaves" as a colleague sniffily described them, I realized that they were where real history lived and breathed.<br />In WW2 history I first became aware of the recollections of old men when my dad let me stay up to watch "The World At War" series, but I gradually realized that these old men were the generals and officers of their day, for the most part. And yet millions of men, women, and children were involved in that war, and their experiences, their dissent, their attitudes (shirking, cowardice, reluctant or coerced obedience) are not usually reflected in the official histories of the 50s and 60s. <br />I believe there is still a place for the larger story and macro narrative - I just read Antony Beevor's book DDay, which follows the broad outline of the Normandy campaign, whereas Canadian historian Mark Zuelke's oral histories of Normandy leave me lost in the weeds and unable to grasp the big picture (though perhaps the big picture is someone's best (or biased)guess at the story.<br />AS for your grandfather, there is a whole different flavour of experience to be a young man on the winning side, and one trying to survive. My father, who spent three years training and raising a family in England with the Canadian Army, then went through Holland, always said he had an easy war. I am sure he glossed over a lot, but he never had to question his ideology, his pride, his masculinity, the way that the members of losing, interned, and captured armies did. Such a range of experience. You do well to remind us of these variations in lived history.Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.com